EP 21. Curtis Schlaufman, Global Head of Marketing at Enya Labs.

In this Key Moments Episode, Curtis Schlaufman, Global Head of Marketing at Enya Labs, shares his book recommendation, 'The Daily Stoic,' and discusses his reading preferences. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on what you can control and applying stoic philosophy in life and business.

In this conversation, Curtis Schlaufman highlights the significance of product quality in marketing and the role of trust and transparency. He shares his experience working with Neil Patel and the lessons he learned in marketing

Check out the episode below.


Listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

In this episode, Curtis Schlaufman, Global Head of Marketing at Enya Labs, offers his ideas and experiences, providing useful lessons for both marketers and professionals. He suggests the book The Daily Stoic, emphasising his preference for literature about practical philosophy. Curtis emphasises the necessity of focusing on what you can control and applying stoic ideals to both personal and professional situations. He emphasises the importance of product quality in marketing, claiming that marketers must properly understand the items they promote in order to foster trust and transparency with their customers.

Curtis also discusses his experience working with renowned marketer Neil Patel, revealing the essential insights he gained. Moving on to the blockchain industry, he outlines the particular issues it poses and how he handles them. Curtis emphasises the need of developing solid professional relationships and placing a high value on people as crucial components of marketing success. He guides aspiring marketers to focus on consistency, resilience, and to be willing to learn new skills, all of which are necessary for success in the ever-changing field of marketing.

Overall, Curtis Schlaufman's path demonstrates the value of Stoic philosophy, product quality, trust, and strong relationships in marketing. His emphasis on controlling variables, increasing transparency with clients, and constantly acquiring new skills gives a solid foundation for both present and aspiring marketers to succeed.


  • Focus on what you can control and apply stoic philosophy in life and business.
  • Product quality is crucial in marketing, and marketers should understand the product they are selling.
  • Trust and transparency are essential in marketing to build strong relationships with customers.
  • Building relationships and valuing people are key to success in marketing.
  • Consistency, resilience, and a willingness to learn new skills are important for aspiring marketers.


I'm just going to include my entire late 20s as a whole.

It's 11 giant failure because I was involved in probably I think 3 different startups that went nowhere.

And if I didn't go through that experience, I wouldn't have the resiliency I have today or probably even the optimism and the the knowledge of this is what not to do and then I'm able to apply to today.


Curtis, welcome the key moments.

Thanks for having me.

I'm good.

How are you?



I appreciate you jumping on at such an early time.

But here's the thing right I've been doing some math based on your LinkedIn profile and you have spent just under a decade working with Neil Patel related like companies.


So like whether it's like NP digital or whether it's Uber suggest and So what things that I wanted to ask you is what was?

Like if if there's only one marketing tactic that you could stick to and do nothing else, from everything that you've learned, just that these two companies, I know you've done a lot more and we'll we'll jump into that.


But if there was one thing that you could all and you could only refer to that one thing, what would it be with Neil specifically and how he's built his business, its brand.

And a lot of what he's done to build his brand is put out free content information and education.


And that's really been the catalyst behind the giant growth engine he's built because that's attracted a lot of loyal followers or fans and eventually customers and now he's working with Fortune 500 companies.


So Brand is a is an incredible tool to employ, especially if you're consistent and maintain it over the long term and treat it.

He literally treats it like a child.

I see it first hand because I also know his kids, so he's very protective over as well.




What would you like?

What's an example of that?

Or what?

What would you mean by that?

Well for him like if if you go to social media like the reason people know Neil Patel and not it's not a corporate name where it's not like an Apple or a Microsoft where of course you we do know the leaders behind those Jai companies, Tim Cook now Bill Gates and they certainly have a brand unto themselves.


But as Steve Jobs no longer around, Apple is bigger than Tim Cook but Neil Patel is bigger than Nope, Tell digital, Uber suggest.

And without Neil Patel there is no Uber suggests.


There is no Neil Patel Digital.

There aren't the few software companies that he founded when he was in when his in his 20s like crazy or kiss metrics.

And essentially like I mentioned before, he put out a lot of free content quite honestly as a lead magnet to get people's information to grow the e-mail list.


And that's just been the catalyst of of of of nurturing that that user base for those lists.

And then you know everybody makes mistakes here and there.

So he certainly did with his brand when he was when he was younger.

But brand is something that you should also protect, that you should also take very seriously because it can make or make or break you if you're setting out to create a personal brand.


And so treating it like it's your kid and it's at this point it's made him a lot of money like it certainly it is a his own brand is his most valuable out asset, I would say more so than his home, more so than any material item he has because that's what propels him.


It's true, isn't it?

His life, Yeah.

Yeah, I know that make that makes sense and I guess like to to re to so going back to you now and rewinding the tape a little bit, you actually studied political science, yeah.

Walk us through that and and how, how like how how you kind of like what did you have in mind?


How how did things kind of change?

Was it what you expected or so I I took an interest in politics at an early age, probably middle school was when I sort of started paying attention.

I would watch the the news every evening with my dad, so naturally I would know things about the world that maybe a lot of kids my age group didn't.


So like when we when we did trivia in in class for fun.

I would always know things about current events more related to real world like news than everyone else.

I was Civic Students of the Year my senior year of high school.


Were other kids in in, in class?

Like, damn it, Kurt is not again, you know, everything.

It's essentially like, I mean, it was like, how do you know this?

I was just like, I watched the news, right?


Or I read it like my dad would.


My dad had a subscription to the LA Times from Los Angeles, so I had to read the Los Angeles Times as well.

There wasn't really a whole lot of digital journalism back then, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, yeah.

But as I moved forward, like I took a a keen interest in politics.


I got involved in my university, in the student government, and there was a lot of higher education in in California.

I went to a public school.

So we were very dependent upon public funding.

So we would lobby our local legislators, elected officials for them to advocate to put more money into the higher education system in California.


So that was the California State University system and the UCS like everybody knows that you sees.

And so ultimately I became student body president, Cal State Fullerton, Cal State University Fullerton in Orange County.


And then I thought I was going to, you know, go into politics right after college, maybe become a lawyer, that traditional route that every political science student Thanks.

So I got a lot of exposure in political science, like it's a love hate thing.

I don't like every.


Like, I also evolved as well in my views.

I was very conservative when I was younger.

I came from a pretty conservative community.

And then through college, I kind of went to the other end of the spectrum.

And then as I've got older, it's a little more left of center.


But yeah, just I was really interested and I was young and I didn't really know what I was going to do with my life.

And then right out of college, I got involved with a startup, and that was the first thing that sort of got me out of that bubble.


So I started learning about tech and you know, bootstrapping a startup from the ground up.

And so I was like, oh, this is neat, I think I want to do this.

So I just changed course and it's it's a little more complicated than that, but for the sake of time.


And like, did you, did you find that, like your skill set at the time was, were you going into it?

Like, oh, I can totally apply.

Like, I totally have transferable skills here.

Or was it more so like, hey, I'm willing to to really start a blanket, like, to start fresh because I can recognize this is totally different from what I had in mind.



I think there were actually a lot of transferable skills from politics or what I had to do specifically in my experience, because I had to run a campaign.

I had to develop my own brand when I was running for president or even when I was vice president.

I had to be able to communicate with people.


I had to be able to sell them on myself and what my vision was.

And that was telling a story.

A lot of marketing when you're put getting a product or service out there you have to be able to sell your product or service you have to be able to tell the story behind it.

So it was a really natural and easy sort of transition just in that facet to be honest.


I started out just doing SEO search engine optimization and that's sort of where Neil comes in.

So because he's he's one of the OG's of SEO, but it it's yeah it's just been a really was transfers.


It was a really transferable skill set that I it wasn't too hard for me to pick up.

Yeah, I haven't looked at it like that before, cuz like my dad actually studied political.

Sorry, no that is a total lie.

My my dad studied journalism and like kind of like broadcast TV and stuff and back home in Egypt and he basically transitioned into like a.


The ministry of like foreign affairs.

So like very very political focused and we always like sit and and joke about how like I can never do his job and perhaps you can never do my job and and just how different they are.

But I think what what you're saying is interesting because there are there's obviously a lot of different like commonalities and transferable skills and we're going to unpack your journey a lot more right now actually.


But let's do it in the form of the the five key moments.

So really going into the.

The meat of the episode.

So let's start with one failure.

I think you had your coffee.


I haven't.

Yeah, it's it's it's 80.

It's almost 8:30 for me yet.

And then I I learned that if you don't drink coffee until like 2 hours after you wake up, then you'll have more energy throughout the rest of the day.

So I'm waiting another hour.

But failures.


Yeah, like I I think I'm, I'm just going to include my entire late 20s as a whole.

It's 11.

Giant failure because.

Well, we should say that because I was involved in probably I think 3 different startups that went nowhere.


And if I didn't go through that experience, I wouldn't have the resiliency I have today or probably even the optimism and the, the knowledge of this is what not to do and that I'm able to apply to today.


So I was, you know, essentially involved in three different startups in my in my late 20s.

It's interesting how you said optimism, because, yeah, because you one would, one would think maybe someone listen to this might think, Oh well.

Probably left a sour feeling or something.

So I love where you're taking this.



Like it's.

Well, that's specifically right.

You kind of have to look at life as a of this as this long, long journey.

There's no final destination.

Even if you launch a successful company and it makes a ton of money, the journey's not over.


Like there's always the next thing or there's always the next opportunity.

I mean if you, if you stay focused, and for that in particular, every time I failed, I continue to work at something else or build new relationships, make connections, network and try to improve myself as an individual.


Not like my professional skills, certainly my professional skills, but what did I learn from that?

What am I not going to repeat again and how can I apply that moving forward?

So that's what I did.


Teach you that or did you kind of self like you kind of come across you came across that like just through through experience.


I think I through osmosis because I, like my dad, has had his own business and I learned a lot through him, like what he did and the way he lived his life.


Like he he's one of the most unselfish people.

Like, I know I'm biased.

He's my dad.

He's one of the most unselfish people I've ever known.

He's really never done a whole lot for himself.

Everything was just to provide for our family and make sure we had the best opportunities available.

And he was kind of just strapped to his job because if without him, things would kind of fall apart.


But like, yeah, he he took a giant risk left left his previous like his job when he was like I was like 10 years old.

And then started his own business, used his own money to bootstrap it, build it, and then did very well.


And then 2008, 2009 came along and then did very poorly.

But he had he saved money and got the business through that turbulent time.

And then of course I'd seen other friends fail in different ways.


But then if they stuck to it, if they were resilient, eventually something would work out for them.

It's just the law of averages in my mind, of that sense, so.


All right.

So shifting gears now, what is one book for you?

One that I probably look like, the one that I look at the most is The Daily Stoic, specifically because I think it'd apply to everyday life and business and and those sort of teachings.


And it's it's not overzealous, it's very grounded and such a good framework on how to live life, how to view life, how to approach different situations and different people.

And I think it's applicable to anybody and can be relatable to anybody in that sense.


I do read a lot of science fiction.

Outside of that I'm not really a big reader of like those the business books.

I've always.

Yeah, always kind of just I've tried to talk to people and pick their brains in that sense.


Certainly I'll I'll get the sparks notes of if something if somebody refers me to something but like I just like, I I like to be entertained when I read.

It's it's more of an escape for me in that sense.

But yeah, like, I love The Daily Stoic.


Even before I was reading The Daily Stoic, it's it's just it just came so naturally.

Yeah, Did did you read the easy other books?

Well, like the obstacles the way and the other the others from the Stoic series.

I haven't.

I I probably need to though.

Yeah, it's the daily stock.


You might like it, yeah, because it's actually.

I think you'll definitely like it because it's it pretty much, it's almost like the the prequel to to.

To to the Daily Stoic and yeah it's it's interesting what you said about like how are you trying to you you you always like don't don't lean into like business books as much as like people and kind of like get get that feedback from them.


That's a that's a very refreshing way of looking at it.

Perhaps because like you almost get like the amalgamation of like what they've been learning as opposed to like reading things in books and having to to piece them together.


And it cuz like all those, yeah, all those books like you can take away Keylesses of course, but everything isn't like super applicable.


I guess it just depends on like great that was.

That's been my experience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I know Ryan Holiday is is awesome.

I've read yeah, I've read The Obstacles the way that's actually my my number one favorite book.


So I I'm pretty familiar with with it.

I haven't actually read The Daily Story yet, but I've I've just read like just.

I think like a summary of it or something like that and yeah I well with Daily Stoke it's it's it's bite sized daily passages like so you're gonna read it's it's meant to be read one one page a day.


Yeah, yeah, it's very, it's very unique in that regard.

Yeah, it's funny, like my cofounder he he's really big on like SparkNotes and and basically just getting like the gist of something as opposed to like reading, reading.

All the way through.


I'm a bit of a weird person that says that sometimes I like to read business books for entertainment.

Like I would almost read the summary and I'm like, OK, I get it.

Now let me read the book and I would read it not not just for entertainment but also just to like really let the concept sink.

And even though the point has been made like in the first page or the in the summary or something like that, but sometimes I just feel like I I need more to really, really internalize the concept and so on.


Yeah, no, that makes sense for sure.

It's like.

You know, you know, just like your studies and in school.

And then of course, if you don't read the details, you'll never be able to pick them up.

So yeah, yeah perhaps and curious like what did you did you work because I you know with the Daily Stoic as you mentioned like it's it's pretty much like separated by by by the different kind of like calendar days.


Was there any specific maxim or kind of like adage that you?

Find yourself applying more than others in your life.

It's always about for me, like it's always focused on what you can control and most like.


It all kind of boils down to the only thing you can really control are your own thoughts and actions.

Everything else is a little bit of chaos and the the sooner you can make that realization or make those adjustments, it's it's a bit more freeing because then you can focus on what your path is and how you're going to tap overcome those obstacles or whatever obstacles are in front of you and you decide how you react to them.


You decide what actions that you are going to take.

Everything else that's that's just a part of the world you live in.

If you can't, you have no control over that.

Maybe influence it, but it certainly also stress levels being and then also like because my girlfriend for example, like she stresses about everything but that's I think that's most people as well.


So I was trying to get her to focus on what is it that you can do about this, what is it, and then what are the things that are not in your control.

So that way you can proceed forward rather than being held back by external factors.

Yeah, yeah.


It's so true, isn't it?

So I guess like taking that to like your your professional life, like obviously you've you've held like marketing leadership positions at a lot of different companies that some are similar, some are pretty diverse.


What are for folks listening?

Who are marketers like?

What are some ways to perhaps like apply that philosophy to like, you know what I mean Like when when leadership is expecting like.

ROI you know yesterday from marketing and and they're they're going through it and they're just trying to figure out how they can focus on what they can control.


What would you, what would you share there?

Like with with anything, if you can have the best, you can be the best marketer in the world and have the best marketing campaigns.

But if your product or service sucks it, it's either like it, it's not going to matter so.


Whenever I go into a company, or I take a job, or I work with a client, in the past it's always, I've always taken a look at what they're selling first their what?

What product or service does it solve a problem?

Is it unique?


And more importantly, what is the quality of it?

If it's a if it's a SAS product, is it clean?

Does it?

Does it have a lot of tech debt or?

Is there potential there to help clean that up?

So in that sense as well, I've taken on an interest in the product side of things or the service side of things, right, sort of more of like an IT.


I think they call them entrepreneurs, where you go into a business and you're not the entrepreneur, but you can help innovate from within a company that already exists with a product and service set so.

I think the big part of making a well routed marketer or a great marketer is also knowing the product and the service you're selling or trying to to get to get out there and the ways in which you can improve it.


Because if you're a good marketer, you're also listening to your custom rebrace.

You know what their problems are, and you know what you're the the problem that your product or service is trying to solve, or how you can make it better.

For your target audience.

So that way you know you can hopefully get more revenue separates and these are all things that are within your control.


So I mean you know the market response is not necessarily in your control, but like you know if you're doing the things that are leading indicators of positive feedback, then I think that's where where our focus should go.


Because when it when you boil it down like.


Marketing tactics are very, very similar in every industry.

And if you've heard that marketing long enough, you learn a lot.

Most of them if and there's, you know, there's only in it marketing innovation at the edges and you don't.


To be a really great marketer, you don't need to be innovating per se.

To be a great marketer, I think you need to focus on product and how you can make that, how you can help the product team, the developers, the engineers, or whomever.

To make that product or service better, so that way you can go out and sell it, Yeah, makes a lot of sense.


It's a very refreshing view on it as well.

And just one more, one more question that before we move on.


What's the What's your take on like Great products don't require marketing?

I think it in very unique situations, that's true.


If like if it's a known brand, if people know the brand and they put out a new mark, a new product, yeah, you don't need a whole lot of marketing.

Apple comes out with a new, you know, Apple Vision Pro.

I'm, I'm already going to buy it.

Like that's that's a that's a no brainer because you know they make excellent products.


They have built a brand that people trust.

To put out great product and great product experiences at high quality and then they're very focused on the details of everything they put out.

So you know, very likely that the Apple Vision Pro is going to be a piece of crap.


It's going to probably be really, really cool.

It looks really, really cool.

But they also nail the marketing of it because you go to the landing page of it, of of the Apple Vision Pro and it's incredible and.

The way they shoot their media, their video, the way they they lay out the product features, they're still marketing there.


Like maybe to some degree, like I mentioned, yeah, bigger brands, they don't have to do as much marketing, but if you're a startup or you're a small business that doesn't like.

Yeah, it doesn't apply to you.

You still have like you still have to have a platform or build a platform.


To garner attention and get eyeballs to and and get it in front of whomever your target audiences.

Yeah, makes sense.

So, shifting gears, who is one person?

Yeah, I mean outside of outside of my parents.


Then like I'll refer back to Neil.

Neil Patel, He is a.

Like he's he's one of a great friend of mine but also a like a savant when it comes to business and marketing.

So I've learned a lot over the years from him in working with him or for him.



I think my biggest takeaways and learnings were when we launched Uber suggest and do a pay platform as Neil acquired Uber Suggest.

I think it like. 20/16/2017 where it was just a keyword tool and then we built out all of the features that you see now and then launched it into like everything was free, built up a user base and then in March of 2020, right right in the midst of COVID launched a a a premium version of it.


Grew the revenue to over 6 figures a month at one point.

Built that team up to over, I think it's around 50 now.

I'm no longer full time with the company because I moved on, but but working with Neil on a daily basis there and then seeing how a company from like from someone who had started companies before and been very successful with them that was.


Probably one of the greatest learning experiences I've ever had.

And what you find is one thing that is one thing unique, that you've learned that you've sort of like carried on even in your future, like even with perhaps like any labs and words.


Yeah, I think that's where, yeah, I really sort of realized the importance of of product and like look.

All the details involved and making sure you have a quality product that people are able to use and enjoy using and then it solves a problem for them.


And then there's a product market fit and who you're selling the product to because Uber suggests competitors are a Russ and SCM Rush with Uber suggests we came in and we weren't even targeting their A Rus or SCM.


Rush's audience.

Their audiences workers.

Uber suggests audience is.

Small business owners who don't have the resources to hire an SEO agency or haven't hired somebody in house to do SEO.

So we crafted Uber suggests and built out Uber suggests to be as user friendly and intuitive as possible to somebody who doesn't know SEO.


So you know that that's developing ways on how to get them started.


Education, tutorials and then of course building out a support team that was sufficient and knowledgeable enough on SEO to be able to answer those inquiries.


So certainly a very it was very difficult and in some aspects, but they were suggested to turn into quite a successful SAS company.

I read an article a couple of days ago just by total chance on the Neil Taylor's blog.


And going back to that brand piece, I think something that I just really wanted to shout out is I think the article was called something like over suggested versus versus.

It was either Hrefs or SM Rush or some some type of like a comparison article, not not a chart, but an article.


And what I really loved is like there was a very clear distinction between who this is for and who this is for and where this product is great and where that product is great.

And I think in that blog post there was, there were a lot of things that went at length to talk about to really give every product like a fair shake and a great representation.


And I just thought like this was so interesting it was such a like master class in in in building brand because you're literally investing company efforts to like talk about a product that a different product that's in your space perhaps even a an indirect competitor of sorts.


But I just I just thought it's just so, so, so big of the brand of of of and so on to to do that.

Because yeah it it it, it wasn't biased it was very or sorry let me say this way it wasn't it.


It it really seeks to to keep the end user in in in mind and making sure that the audience have all the information that they need.

Yeah, that's, I mean that.

Yeah, that's.

That's always trusted.

Transparency is trust.


Thank you.

That's the word I was looking for.



That's what.

That's part of the formula for sure.

Yeah, fair enough.

Fair enough.

All right, So shifting gears, what was maybe closer to to like modern day, modern day life for you?


What is one decision that really made a massive difference in your journey?

I think it was.

More recently it was getting more so into blockchain industry, making the jump from Uber suggests to the previous company I was with, Valor and Defy Technologies.


They offer regulated crypto products on regulated exchange through Europe.

And then there's securities.

Traded here in the United States and Canada so that was that was a big pivot for me.

I took an interest in cryptocurrency and blockchain 2019-2020.


Helped was working help help helping building a brand for a guy who is who had a newsletter in the space.

He was asked to be an advisor.

To defy technologies and that recommended me to be their first marketing hire.


I of course accepted because it was you know, we just at that point was well, well on its way had been built out was was growing.

So I wanted to do something a little different and take a take a risk because I was still, I'm still young, but I was even younger a few years ago, right.


So I felt like I could do that.

And and try something different.

And so it's it's been a very interesting journey for me over the past few years in this industry in particular.

I work for a blockchain infrastructure company at the moment and then yeah, it's just a completely different world.


More specifically with with my experience now, the user base marketing roles don't necessarily apply because.

To be quite blunt, this industry is primarily driven, at least by a user side, by speculation and entertainment.


So blockchain users come to speculate or they come to play games, and they're not necessarily interested in the technology or the best products.

Certainly, like a good product, experience is important.


That's how you keep or retain users.



But the the coin, the token drops are the air drops.

Those are those are the big drivers of all of the growth of a lot of the ecosystems in this space.

So it almost like changes the rule book entirely, entirely and and if anything like it's almost being written as we as we speak, right.

Like there's just it's ever evolving as as we speak.

It's not like, Oh yeah, with when you whenever you come across that this is what you do ABC.


Yeah and like and to be fair with any new industry, speculation plays a big part in it.

I think blockchain though ever more so and that what what's really interesting as well like to attract developers into your ecosystem.

A lot of developers are looking for grants, so they're looking for blockchain infrastructure companies.


Or like what we call layer one blockchains or layer 2 blockchains to pay them to build and make your ecosystems.

That's like you or I going to AWS or Google Cloud and say, hey, now I want to build a website, How much are you going to pay me to build AWS?

But then that's that should say so, I mean, right, Yeah.


It's very different.

Yeah, I can.

I can only imagine and like, what's the?

What is the and for context I don't know the first thing about blockchain what what where do you think the the industry is going like for folks who are looking to get into that from from a marketing standpoint like what is the and I'm making I'm making a perhaps even a naive assumption here but I always thought that it was more like tech tech slash tech.


I mean technical driven as a driven as opposed to like marketing.

It was a place for, for technical folks more so than, you know, marketers, as it were and in the traditional sense of the word that.

Maybe you can help help correct me here.



No, you're not wrong because early days like the a lot of the companies were founded by tech guys or engineers there, there weren't many marketers in the space, right.

Yeah, sort of sort of with any and like with a lot of I guess new industries, the marketers come later.


Because it with technology, if you're an engineer, you're not necessarily a marketer and you don't know what you don't know and you don't know you need marketing.

You may know you need marketing, but you don't know the importance of it.

So they they launch a product, they start building a brand and then they start getting, you know, generating revenue of some sort and then they just start throwing money at things.


And that's like you saw a lot of crypto companies do that, right.

They started throwing money at things and they didn't know what their ROI was, how much they were actually just essentially lighting on fire because it was no use.

So then now over the past I would say at least year or so you're seeing more season marketers come into these companies building and marketing infrastructure be able to provide data and analytics to show where this.


How effective the spend is, what the ROI is and then really refine and Polish up the brand and any efforts.


It's interesting because it's almost like following the, I like the way that you've positioned it like in terms of how this is almost the case with any new technology where it's like let's just get the, let's make sure the technology exists and it works and ideally generates revenue as well.


And I guess unfortunately for some of these companies like they think of marketing as an as an afterthought.

And I think the advantage that some of the other companies in that space have is not treating it like an afterthought, but rather introducing that like earlier on.


I guess that only stands to benefit them in the long run.


And I think, I mean it's more it's applicable to you know companies globally as well.

So it's the the marketing department lasts to hire first to fire.

And you're seeing a lot of lot of that now because the the economy you've seen a lot of a lot of companies cut marketing unfortunately to their detriment long term.


It's interesting how other companies are are approaching this or companies in general are approaching this and and reacting to things in the economy right now like they I think there's a lot of folks who are more definitely more hesitant than others and their their actions show that.


But to your point, like I think if if you're cutting, if you're cutting out something that you know will be absolutely critical for you a couple months down the line and you don't necessarily have a backup plan, then that that only plays to their to their detriment to your point.


And I guess, yeah, one, one final thing, just because we're coming up to time, I did want to ask you if you can tell us about given all the things that you've went through in your journey and and now continuing you're currently at any elapsed, what was one accomplishment maybe during all that time that maybe for others didn't wasn't like the flashest thing or didn't didn't decided mean a lot to others, but for you it just hit different.


I honestly, I never pictured myself in the place I am now.

My I never wanted to work in office.

I'm and I still don't.

So I always thought that I'd never really.


Be like in a corporate environment or have like a title.

I always be because I had a small agency I would work on with Neil or for Neil and on projects here and there.

But I never you know, he asked me five years ago.


I never said I'd be like you know VP marketing or global head of marketing or any team in a corporate environment and and in leading.

Leading folks.

So I think.

I think for me the joy I get out of work is the people I work with.


And whenever I go into a work environment, I I I want to feel of value and be of value to people and have healthy relationships with the folks I work with and of course be liked like I mean.


Not so much so where it's like I need you to like me, it's like all right, like you know, respect is my baseline love language for for anybody.

So coming into an environment, establishing an environment that is, that has trust, some flexibility and creative space, particularly with individuals that work with me or.


You know people on my team, I get a lot of joy out of them, like when the view time comes speaking about how they enjoy working with or for me and particularly the creative freedom or the freedom that they they have and the flexibility there.


Because for me as well, I don't like to be marker managed.

I like the when I go into a work environment, I like autonomy and being able to be flexible, creative, because I think it's easy to if someone goes a bit too far, it's easy to rein them in.


Or as if you go into a culture where it's like you're fearful, it's hard to get them out of their show.

So it's it's highly encourage trust and creative freedom and autonomy.

And then if they need to be reined in a little bit then that's where it is.

But yeah, I'm just really proud of the relationships that I've created over the past few years.


And for me, relationships are outside of time, like it's your most value asset, but relationships are your most valuable, the most valuable thing you have as well, because people help propel you in life.

You without community or friends and family, you're not going to get it so.


Yeah, I mean they say they're you're a network leader in this world.

So, yeah, yeah, that that is, I think that's very true.

Yeah, yeah.

And for folks who are, we're not yet a marketing leader but are almost looking to like they're they're they're currently building their, their journey towards that.


What are some pieces of advice you can share with them as far as like building, building, building their network the right way, making sure that they are?

Setting themselves up for success and setting themselves up such that they can actually end up in an environment where they can have a lot of the things that you were talking about in terms of like obviously having a baseline of of respect, having a which obviously goes goes without saying.


But also to your point like having that safe space that I would almost highlight the word safe, the safe space to like really, truly beyond posters on a company, be autonomous and and really have that creative freedom.

To help help figure things out for the company, yeah, I think that comes down to the the if you're if you're entering your company, make sure you know what their values are, what the work environment is like and that's where you ask questions in your interview or wherever you're going.


So like that, that's pretty straightforward and simple.

But as an individual, it's for me, it's showing up, being consistent, that's what has helped me get to where I am.

Like, you know, I don't go off the map or disappear.



I'm probably a little too available at odd hours.

But that's just me saying that, hey, I'm here, I've got you back, we're going to get this done.

So consistency is key for me.


Resiliency and also not being afraid to get your hands dirty, taking on tasks that may be outside of your job description or what other people might think are beneath that.

I've got and I've done a lot of that.


Like because you people work off of trust and if you can be trusted with a very small task that you may not think is a big deal, it might be a big deal to somebody else.


And if they can trust you with that, you'll get more and more and more and more important tasks or responsibilities.

And finally, it's like don't be afraid to learn something new or take something new on.

If you can take on new skill sets, that just makes it take on new skills.


That just makes you more marketable, more valuable to future employers.

Or if you're an you become an entrepreneur like I consider myself an Inden marketer.

I can do everything myself without the need of anybody else if I have to, because there's like I have the knowledge or there are tools out there that I've picked that like learned about that I can utilize to take a marketing campaign from beginning to end.


Yes, it'll take me a little longer without the help, but I can still but.

You'll figure it out eventually, yeah.


And yeah, you almost remind me, Curtis.

Remind me of this?

This book that I that I've been reading recently called How to I think it's Yeah, How to Feel Everything and still went big by Scott Adams, the creator of the The Dilbert comic strip.


And he's basically talking about like his journey for For success and so on.

One of the things that where I last left off in the book, he was talking about like how different skills, especially when they're not necessarily like, so obviously like complementary to each other.

When you combine them together you you compound your your your value.


So just a basic arbitrary example.

Let's say you you you know marketing but you also you're also a great public speaker for example.

Or you you know marketing but you also you can you know you speak Spanish as well or you know if the more the more like skills that you can almost like layer on top of each other the more you you're almost like multiplying them by each other and I I would argue that.


To your point, like with within marketing, the more things that you could do as opposed to saying, oh, that's have you seen my job title?

That's a beneath me or that's not my job or that's someone else's job.


I think I just love the way that you positioned it because I think I really hope people, people get this set like you, you only stand to win.


This is not like a it's not a it's not a political thing.

No, not at all.

Like everybody needs help.

And I think if it's just if, if, if you ever got, if you have a good attitude, people are going to want to work with you.


At the end of the day, people work with who they like, like that.

That came from a book, I'm sure.

But like that's very true.

You don't want to work with somebody who's a pain in the ass and puts up a fight every time you ask them to do something.

Yeah, absolutely.


So, Curtis, we can keep talking for a lot longer.


I have so much more questions for you, but I'm conscious of your time and you're just starting your day so.

I just wanted to say thank you so much for coming on.

But in closing, where can people find you?

And is there anything that you wanted to give to the community, either as yourself or perhaps as as any labs?

I'm on Twitter, at C Schlaf, CSCHLAUF, most on LinkedIn.


We don't necessarily have anything to give, but feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions like I'm I'm always happy to give away advice through Ubers.

I'm still answering that Uber suggests users questions on a frequent basis, so if you have any digital marketing questions or writing questions in general, happy to answer them.


Can e-mail me

You should be able to spell my name if my name pops up on the screen somewhere.

But yeah, always happy to way to answer questions or make connections and help in any way I can in that regard.



Well, Curtis, thank you so much for your time and we'll see you soon.

Thanks, Kareem.

Appreciate it.

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